Pirate Kestral & Schroedinger nerf

[amylaar]

I wonder if this was on purpose?
The Kestrel's transport capacity now falls far short the mass transporters capabilities, and it also seems a bit lackluster in combat now,
so I'm unsure what it's niche now is. Unless it's really meant for primarily pirate use - but then, does it make sense that it's still the poster (i.e. icon) ship for Naev?

The Schroedinger used to be a fabulous ship to zip around if you wanted to go quickly from A to B and/or fly under the radar, and/or explore.

With the re-balancing the standard range dropped from 12 to 11. You can up that a bit with an extra fuel tank or a Melendez engine,
but that makes the ship too vulnerable to pirates because you can't easily run away any more, unless you like to stay stealthed all the
time - that's still fast in the naev-world cycles, but slow for the player when you figure in time compression.
Speaking about Melendez engines, having only one per small/medium/large class is actually stifling. When you want to equip a light ship with a range-extending engine, it's too heavy, and when you equip a heavy dreadnought, it gets about as much speed from blinking as it gets from the main engine.

Now with the lower fuel reserve and consumption of the Schroedinger, the fuel consumption of the engine's own fuel is not lowered,
so the standard range shrinks to 9. A Dvaered Arsenal with some fuel tanks now makes a much better scout.

[nenau-again]

I can't comment on the Kestrel as I didn't touch that ship for ages (didn't modify its stats nor fly it as a player).
On the Schroedinger, it's a change done by @LJDude on my idea. It was not intended to nerf the ship, but to make it feel less odd that such a small ship can hold that much fuel. Numbers have been adjusted to make the ship roundly as useful as it used to be.
The Schroedinger has high jump number capacity (one of the bests), high speed (one of the bests) high stealth (the best available to player) and instant jump (one of the only). The combination of 4 characteristics makes a good scout out of it. As you pointed it out, the structure and engine slots enables to either get more speed or more jump capacity.
Actually in my playstyle, I nearly never use the full amount of fuel of the Schroedinger so I didn't think it could be a problem, so i'm glad you manifested.

I see 3 possibilities :

• Revert change
• Increase fuel capacity by 50 or 100
• Leave as it is now

To decide between all of them, we'd like to need more testings:

• Isn't the afterburner sufficient to outrun the pirates even if you have your structure slot occupied by something other than improved stabilizer?
• In what situation do you need to perform 12 jumps? And is 9 jumps really that much of an handicap?
• Are there really many explorations situations where an Arsenal is better than a Schroedinger? (I guess Caesar-launching Ancestors make short work of Arsenals, no?)

[LJDude]

In what situation do you need to perform 12 jumps?

Traveling from empire space to sirius space via the wormhole requires 14 iirc. The only other thing I can imagine is exploring large stretches of uninhabited (ngc-xxxx) space. I'll have to test it, but that should still be plenty possible with the change.

[amylaar]

When you explore, you have to turn back after half the fuel is used. A bit later if you want back from a dead end, but then, when you explore
a network with multiple dead end, you need more fuel to explore efficiently. 9 jumps is no good for that.

The afterburner is usually good to avoid getting hit too much as long as the energy lasts. Which is not long enough if you can't shake the
pirates off and there's swarms of them, so again, you can't scout in the outer reaches without the afterburner and a Tricon Zephir engine. And if you have to turn back after four jumps, that's not much scouting.
If you use any knowledge of the starmap you remember from previous playthroughs or work on it to direct you where it's useful to explore, you are cheating, and it's not representative of what a new player (without a walkthrough) would do.

The arsenal, fully equipped with fuel pods and a Melendez engine, can do 16 jumps, can run away from a dvaered goddard as they usually come in patrols with the help of a blink engine, and can regenerate with Cryogenic repair nanobots if out on a lonly scouting mission. Or Droid repair crews if you are going for short-term hot action.

I don't know if I faced Ancestors that had Caesar lauchers, but from my experience the Arsenals can overcome three or four Vendettas / Ancestors / Phalanxes easily. Sure there are groups too big / heavily armed for it in some places / from time to time, but if you don't have the necessary range and there's nobody around who'd refuel you, or to many who'd blast you to smithereens if you try, there's no point to being stealthy and fast.

I find that the main use for the Schroedinger is personal and contraband transport. Particularly for the latter, the instant jump is key so you don't have to spend tons of time being stealthed waiting for a presumed safe window when you can approach the jump point (which is always high risk anyway since there could be something coming from the other side).
So it's no longer for for purpose as a scout. It's an express people-carrier, and a smuggler's runabout.

Actually, before the rebalancing, the Kestral gave the Schroedinger a run for its money as a scout if you played on sufficiently fast computer to allow high time compression - the Kestral could run away from big foes and obliterate slow to medium dense swarms of small foes (of course it still stood no chance against a dense swarm of hyenas).

Regarding realism, if it has low fuel consumption due to low mass, why does it drain the fuel supply of its engine at twice the rate as the built-in tank of the main ship structure? If the fuel consumption for both reservoirs was reduced to 50 per jump, the fuel would last for 12 jumps. Even more if you'd dare to swap the improved stabilizer for a fuel pod (extending 12 to 16 rather than 9 to11). I'd still feel safer in the Arsenal, but it's a game with safe files, so it'd be a way gamble for a quicker exploration vs. a higher probability for the scouting mission to finish.

Of course, if the Schroedinger gets officially re-designated as a smuggler's roundabout, that opens fun possibilities for carrier bays. You could have a Schroedinger bay to let the Schroedingers transport contraband and avoid the authorities while your carrier ship is scanned by the authorities. They could make planetfall to pick up / deliver cargo while you go about your lawful (front-)business of escorting a merchant's convoy from/to the same or nearby planets/moons/stations, or patrolling the trade lanes (obviously not shooting your own smugglers). If you want to make things more complicated, you could have a cargo blink engine in the carrier that allows to transfer cargo between different escorts and/or the cargo pods/hull, and allow the authorities to inspect each of your escorts - one at a time - while you switch around where the contraband cargo is. Or for misdirection, use different ship types to pick up/deliver the same cargo (e.g. Hyenas and Schroedingers).

[LJDude]

A few things:

First, have you ever tried to fight Ancestors that use Caesars in a capital ship without a Hyperbolic Blink Engine or even a Blink Drive? It's painful.

Second, isn't there no way to legitimately get an Arsenal without having to steal it? Besides, only 16 jumps? The Schroedinger maxes out at 17 with the change, and The Za'lek Sting maxes out at 22. If you want to build a Sting for speed instead, then it can reach 18 jumps, which is still more than either of those ships. Another upside to the sting, you don't need to steal a Sting to get one. (Side note: I want a Za'lek cruiser that only uses 200 fuel per jump. That would probably be the best exploration vehicle yet.)

Third, how would a Kestrel give a Schroedinger a run for its money as a scout? You'd have to stack it full of fuel pods and a Mendelez engine, and if that's what you were talking about, than any large ship could be a decent scout. A Hawking would actually be better than a Kestrel in that regard. Besides, the Kestrel is designed to be a fast cruiser, so putting a Mendelez engine on it instead of the Krain Remige kinda defeats that purpose.

Fourth, please clarify this sentence:

Regarding realism, if it has low fuel consumption due to low mass, why does it drain the fuel supply of its engine at twice the rate as the built-in tank of the main ship structure?

It should consume fuel at the same rate no matter what: 50 per jump.

Fifth, please don't designate the Schroedinger as a smuggler's roundabout. I don't want one of the best ships in the game to be a forking smuggler's ship.

[amylaar]

First, have you ever tried to fight Ancestors that use Caesars in a capital ship without a Hyperbolic Blink Engine or even a Blink Drive?

Not sure about the Ceasers, but the Dvaered patrols were indeed often too much for a capital ship before Blink Engines.

Another upside to the sting, you don't need to steal a Sting to get one.

Well, that's new, and it's such a pain to make the Za'lek happy when you try not to stir up the pirates, so I rather buy ships when they are available for purchase. The first time I met Dr Mensing at Vilati Vilata in Naev 0.9 / 0.10, though, I didn't have enough hardware to build a suitable escort, and after that there were some bugs, so my Za'lek progress was delayed. I might try the Sting as a scout at some point. But that kind of reinforces my point that the Schroedinger is no more such an obvious choice for a scout.

Second, isn't there no way to legitimately get an Arsenal without having to steal it?

The Dvaered violated sovereign Frontier Alliance and FLF space by flying their patrols there and shooting everything that's not painted red or submitting to their scans; this was an act of war, so I legitimately acquired these Arsenal ships by commandeering them from their shipyards. The source of the information used in these operations is classified.

Third, how would a Kestrel give a Schroedinger a run for its money as a scout? You'd have to stack it full of fuel pods and a Mendelez engine

Is that made out of chocolate ? :-)
Fuel pods, yes, but all the premium engines used to come with at least four jumps worth of fuel, so a Melendez engine usually wasn't required, and if you had to use it to push it to the limit, you had a choice of different sizes. The Kestrel just had a nice balance of range, speed, and firepower. Plus I used them for almost everything that needed something larger than a Quicksilver, so I knew well how they handled, which was important when you had to land & dock by hand.

It should consume fuel at the same rate no matter what: 50 per jump.

Oops, I got confused with the numbers there. I double-checked, and it is as you say. I stand corrected.

Fifth, please don't designate the Schroedinger as a smuggler's roundabout.

Well, you say the Sting makes a better scout. I found the Arsenal to be a better scout. But the Schroedinger is eminently qualified to carry Self-help Books, Pacifist Manifestos, Scented Soap, Leaked Documents, Smoke Alarms etc with the Dvaered and Empire oppressors usually being none the wiser, and if they happen to find out once in a while, you can run and hide!
If it looks looks a duck, quacks like a duck, and is not called Kex...

[LJDude]

1:

it's such a pain to make the Za'lek happy when you try not to stir up the pirates

Why bother? The pirates are the bad guys, and you can still get their ships by bribing their stations/planets.

2: I don't think Dr. Mensing is part of the campaigns that increase your reputation limit.

3: Let me restate that question: is there any way to legitimately get an Arsenal without either resorting to piracy or going to war? In other words, keeping the Dvaered as the good guys and the pirates as the bad guys?

4: Yeah, I think Krain engines should only come with 3 jumps of fuel, same as Tricon engines.

5: I highly doubt that the Sirius designed the Schroedinger to be a smuggler's ship. Just because it works as one doesn't mean it should be designated as one.

[nenau-again]

Given the conversation here, I would be inclined to add 100 fuel to the Schroedinger's bonus (this way it would be back to 11 jumps with the fastest engine). It would have incredible range when using Mendelez' engine and extra fuel pod, but I don't think it's necessary a problem.
What do both of you think? (and others too if you have something to say)

[LJDude]

That would be reasonable, although I would prefer an increase of just 50 so that the mendelez engine doesn't give it too much range.

[amylaar]

Well, any increase will help the Schroedingers capability for accidental / casual scouting in the fringes of inhabited space, but for serious scouting like near Teller / Kretogg, the Nebula, or the wormholes, you need a lot more range, and a Schroedinger with a Melendez engine is a sitting duck. If you had a Mondelez engine, maybe you could bribe the pirates with a snack, but they'll likely shoot you anyway once they are finished.

[LJDude]

In that scenario, you can put a fuel pod on it instead of an improved stabilizer. You'll still have enough speed to outrun most pirates, especially with an afterburner. Even if you can't outrun sharks and hyenas forever, you should still be able to get enough range to enter stealth mode and get out of the way.

[nenau-again]

...or simply reach a jump point

[nenau-again]

Adding 50 or 100 fuel will restore the Schroedinger's capabilities to what they were before the commit.
Your issue, @amylaar seems to be a bit different. I think a better solution would be then to split the Schroedinger into 2 different ships that fulfil two slightly different roles :

• Stealth scout : no fuel bonus (but still only 50 usage) and good stealth
• Explorer : big fuel bonus (up to maybe 16 jumps) but no stealth bonus

Of course that would require more work (in particular, a new sprite) so in shorter term, I'll put its fuel bonus to 200 as it seems to be OK with both of you.

[LJDude]

Sounds good.

[PhoenixRiver]

It is probably worth bearing in mind that all the new system @bobbens is in the midst of adding I don't think there was going to be a signifacant presence of anyone at all really... so running away or stealthing while doing all that exploration is probably not worth worrying about :)