Get rid of postinstall message #548
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You can hide it using the Package authors have the right to ask users to support their projects. If people are going to be angry about it, they can choose to use a commercial product which doesn't have to ask for funds, instead of a free one. |
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It's called donationware and it sets a bad precedent. Loglevel flags shouldn't be the solution to this, it's a misuse of their purpose. I hope you see where I'm coming from. Please keep it where it belongs, otherwise a high profile package like this will start a trend that nobody wants. |
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@jpike88 it's free software. Once you start paying for it, maybe then you can dictate what is logged during installation. Otherwise, fork it and alias the dependency in your project if you feel so passionately about it. |
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Nobody is dictating anything. It's called encouraging good practices, and instead of being so defensive you can consider what I'm saying on its merits. Or you don't have to, it's open source right ;) everyone's free to say what they want |
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I'm not being defensive. Merely encouraging good social practices (to use your own words). It's not unusual for these post install messages to be in packages installed through npm so saying that you are encouraging "good practices" is not founded in anything substantial. |
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cssinjs/jss#881 This discussion has played itself out in a few other repos, the trend is almost always the reconsidering of whether it's even an effective marketing tactic, and whether it's fair to the developers who utilise it. The move is then reversed. It is a highly unusual thing to do, and the blowback tends to be strong. Otherwise we'd be seeing every 10th or 20th package doing it (thank god we don't). If you're not sure what I mean by 'good practices', you can read those links. |
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I appreciate you digging those up, but there are actually a lot of packages that do it It's up to the maintainer - if it doesn't benefit them like you say, then I'm sure they'll change it in time. Just be glad they aren't mining crypto during the install 😂 |
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A miner would definitely make this complaint look small... lol |
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My preference would be to keep the post-install messages clean; I see them as a good place to advertise recent breaking changes and knowing the size of most node_modules folders, if everyone starts doing it then we're in for a rough ride. But with that being said I respect that it's @zloirock's right to use it to ask for a little help. Hell, I'm using hundreds if not thousands of contributors' time so I think I'll survive. I don't think I'll be the only one here but @jpike88 you've made it really difficult to thumbs up this post with the tone of the message. Nearly every sentence is self-absorbed, outright hostile, or reads as command. |
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Dear @jpike88! Almost 5 years almost every day I spend some hour for maintenance I was working on the project in my spare time. No one paid me for it, more other - I didn't use it actively in my work, I worked on it since I thought that it was required for JavaScript community. No one of browser vendors, TC39, big companies which use Some previous months I worked almost fulltime on 2 months ago I started raising funds to However, shit happens. Because of one accident, now I have some serious problems for tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars and a real chance to be in prison - doubtful pleasure - interesting, who will maintain After a little discussion, I understood that I can't count to any help from Babel. Nothing to say. So why not to make this little experiment? I think that some lines in NPM installation log, which can be hidden if it's required, are an acceptable price for using And after that, someone says that I'm not right because I added a message on Initially, I wanted to add a message on Let this issue be opened a little more time. |
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This is rage-inducing. What if everybody did that? |
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I don't mind donation messages at all, but this little message at the end really bugs me: Is that really necessary? |
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@papandreou @Anaphase I was going to tap out of this conversation because I'd already made my point, however your entitlement is deafening. "It really bugs me", or "This is rage-inducing" are the faulty reasonings of individuals who are unable to muster even one modicum of empathy. It sent a few extra lines through your stdout - if that is what keeps you up at night, then you've clearly lost all perspective. |
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Whereas ad hominem attacks are signs of...? |
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Ok, so maybe that wasn't entirely called for - but the author has already explained themselves. Your feelings don't matter, neither do mine. Why continue to beat a dead horse? 🤔 |
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LOL... I predicted there would be blowback. @jackturnbull not my intention to offend, and the way I talk may be nicer than the way I type. Not my intention to 'command' or insult anyone. And @zloirock holy crap I don't even know what to say there... good luck I guess. This library is used by the angular cli and pretty much all of the angular community, I think you're going to continue to find more attention over time. |
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With respect, it's fine to advertise... but WHY SO MUCH? |
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@IadnAdar that is pretty verbose. I think that comes from many different packages depending on core-js. It's interesting to see just how many packages depend on it. Perhaps if you can suggest a way of limiting it to logging just once? 🤔 |
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Whomever added it to "make cash" / "advertise self", that is the person who should take a good look at him/herself and suggest a fix. ... Just show it once at the top before whatever process is happening takes place. |
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Sometimes people need to make money off things they normally do for free just for the love of it. It's just the way it is - maybe if more people would donate, then it might not be needed? Post install is run after installing for every dependant package. Because it is so important in the ecosystem, that is why you are seeing the message so much. The author has already explained themselves in this issue. Have you read through the comments here already? I suggested forking and aliasing the package further up in this thread, perhaps give that a shot if it's causing you too much trouble right now. |
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Yes, I read the thread and the reasoning is very thin... Annoying users as a tool get donations only serves for the opposite. Psychology 101. There is a way to get something, and this is done poorly and in bad taste. Good luck. |
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Whoooo boy this is getting heated! I just wanted to chime in again and say that there's nothing really wrong with asking for donations, this is free software and we shouldn't be bitching about it. If the verbose logs really bug you, just silence them like @nicolo-ribaudo said with That being said, I still think it's in poor taste to have the last line asking to get hired. @zloirock should have that on his opencollective / patreon / github pages for interested parties, but it's wholly inappropriate to include in a postinstall message. Anyway, I've now become a Patron of @zloirock on Patreon, thanks for all your hard work 👍 |
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I am not a fan of postinstall advertisment but after reading your story, I just want to say I hope you will get through, and thanks for the big work. People should not blame too much others when it's about free and more over good work. |
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let me jump into the bandwagon. zloirock, let's say that money (or opportunity) solves issues. so, at what price will you remove those lines? and jpike88 and friends should try to haggle that price down from their perceived value until equilibrium reached and then followed by paying zloirock that same amount of money (or opportunity). win win? fair? you decide! |
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@ibnuda don't forget, someone has to give him a job too! 😂 |
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Everyone is saying how it is free and that's why the author can do whatever he wants. And yet so many people are browsing ad-powered websites for free, but use AdBlock to hide them. Whether it annoys you or not, why deny the simple truth that postinstall message (which is usually one among hundreds) is not a place to post donation banners? Postinstall message is a place to inform me about the package being deprecated or if it has a security issue. It's a developer's log, full with information about installation, not a blog post. People who are willing to give money to support a project are going to search for the project name and see the donation button/banner on the website/readme long before they even think about donating. Or do you expect people to use their credit cards through command line? |
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I'm a bit confused as to what I would be supporting with these donations. In another thread, you cited
as the reason for this. I have two main questions which are sadly personal in nature but seem relevant.
If you are in prison, who will maintain it then? |
See above - I haven't any options. |
It's a log at the end of the postinstall, you're treating it like another left-pad issue when it's really just a slight inconvenience. A lot of other open source packages advertise their open collective page, it's a pretty common thing but I think they implement work arounds to prevent it from displaying 10s of times if multiple deps depend on it. |
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@zloirock I'd just lock this issue, I don't think there isn't really anything constructive left to say after 140+ comments. |
When a problem occurs on an install and I have to debug, it makes things incredibly hard to go through. It also introduces hundreds of lines of extra debugging. It also slows down installing over a remote connection because console output is not free (it's rather expensive). Plus, it's just plain annoying, especially when you're running installs quite frequently. That definitely fits the definition of "impediment". I've already lodged a formal complaint with npm, so lock this issue as you wish. |
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Hey everyone, A few of you have contacted us at npm, pointing to this issue, thank you! I justed wanted to let you know we've been following the conversation here and we are looking to update our Policy to better articulate and message our Acceptable Use definitions, expectations and actionable outcomes. Legal terminology can get a bit tricky here and we are also taking into consideration the pattern that is emerging in the industry today around donations and support for Open Source projects. Thank you for your patience. |
Part of the problem is that you can't easily set logging levels for individual packages. Though one could say that's an npm issue. |
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I think a good pattern to follow here (in addition to updated terms) is to build something into This file is then dumped to the terminal on A few people in this thread have resolved to turning them off by changing their log levels; this is not a practice we should encourage IMO as you can easily miss something of importance in other packages. We should instead be able to mute just the advertisements (especially because your comment hints at these types of things moving into "Acceptable Use"). |
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this is a great way to have your install log spammed with "drink coca cola" and "eat at burger king" in no time (if you disable it in npm it's gonna make its way into other channels) npm is a package manager and shoving ads into it is just evil, advertisements are an assault on our mental health and any space that they did not yet penetrate should be defended from them tooth and nail |
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First npm-install sounds fine, or make it so it works with npm-install but not npm-ci somehow. |
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@nukeop that view doesn't really make sense. Do you currently have those things in your log? My suggestion does not give people new powers, it just moves them to a specific place (which can be easily turned off). @ErikHumphrey that can be up to |
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Apparently, I must comment on this topic one more time. Seems someone does not understand: this message does not provide any serious donations. Some donations were added only after the hype about this issue. Why it was initially added - you can see above. It's still here only because of all negative from this and related threads. And it will not be removed because of all those shit - it became a matter of principle. Someone wrote that it causes a problem for thousands of people, for almost all just esthetic - but seems they forgot that If someone wanna just improve If for some reason Authors of new negative non-constructive comments related to the Any final thoughts before locking this issue? -) |
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@zloirock, i don't write js or anything that compiled to it. but i genuinely like your decision for making this issue as a matter of principle. best wishes for your endeavour. |
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I think something should be made crystal clear here. Open source maintainers owe you NOTHING. You are using their software that they have made available to you, and you do not have any right to demand anything. You can make a request and the maintainer has every right to say no, just as you have every right not to use the software. Maintainer - you might lock the issue, ignore the people who have not yet realised what toxicity is, (I’ve seen one or two of their pics on Twitter and if you were to run their messages through a classification also they would be broadly negative, which should tell you all you need to know about them). |
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This thread makes me hate humanity. The maintainer is putting tons of time to provide a free service to people, and people are complaining because there's an ad in the log? What entitled, bratty little bitches you whiners are. If somebody gave you a car, you'd probably complain that it wasn't red. @zloirock , you're far too patient with these jerks. You don't owe them an explanation. You should have your app send giant ASCII-art turds to stdout just to annoy them. (P. S., somebody should really teach @Qix- how to use grep) |
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@chowbok I think the point is that almost no other package maintainers do this. But there’s nothing wrong with being a trendsetter. It’s just that many people disagree with the methodology and are respectfully showing @zloirock the door. But while these people are vocal, the reactions suggest that there are more people that are OK with it than those who aren’t OK with it. But it’s pretty close to a tie—quite controversial. Of course, there are always forks like core-js-without-ads. |
It's very common for maintainers to advertise they're on open collective etc. |
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Again you have no say apart from suggestion in someone else’s software. That’s proven simply by the fact the guy owns the repository and you’re making requests. The poor attitude would be enough for me not to do it were it my repository. |
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@stefankip see #597 |
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Dear @stefankip! I warned about it. I no longer intend to tolerate negative and non-constructive comments such as deleted: |
and others
My installation log isn't for advertising space. If you want donations, please do the right thing and promote yourself in places where appropriate. My logs are long enough as it is without this.
The right thing to do is to remove it.
EDIT: An unmaintained fork is available:
core-js-without-adsThe text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: